Texas Carp Invasion!

Texas is home to thousands of species, some are more welcomed than others. Along with mesquite trees and feral hogs, invasive carp are right up there when it comes to nuisance critters. Nathan talks with TPWD and Nick Menchaca who’s cleaning up the San Marcos River one spear at a time. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to Lone Star Trail, a new outdoor show aimed at bringing you hunting and fishing updates and compelling stories from around Texas and right here at home. Get ready to join us down the trail. Now, here's your host, Nathan Smith.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Hello, friends, and welcome to another edition of the Lone Star Trail. I'm your host, Nathan Smith, and I'm glad to be here with you. Glad you're here with us on the show. We have a great show lined up for you today. You're going to want to stay tuned and hear all the things we talk about on today's program. Uh wow, weather coming back to warmer temperatures. Hopefully, we have some rain in the forecast and we'll see some moisture across the state uh in the coming days. Uh lots of wildfire danger out there if you're outside doing anything at all. Really be careful if you uh do anything that might create a spark. Please be careful. Uh we have a lot of unburned fuel out there in the pastures uh with the spring and summer rains we had last year. So lots of fuel conditions are right for wildfire, so be cautious as you're out there. On the show today, we're gonna talk about invasive species. Uh yeah, we've talked about that before. You're probably thinking about feral hogs, but today we're talking about a different species, and that's black carp. We're gonna speak with the parks and wildlife coordinator about black carp and uh the danger and threat that they pose to some Texas waterways and a bounty that gets anglers involved in some of the science research. We're also gonna visit with Nick Manchaka down in San Marcus. He's got a pole spear fishing tournament that's just kicking off, and uh, we're gonna learn a lot more about pole spear fishing, searching for buried treasure in the bottom of uh Texas rivers and a lot of other great stuff with Nick. Uh really interesting guy. You're gonna want to stay tuned and hear what he's got to say about uh efforts to clean up waterways and some interesting ways of doing that down there. On today's house rules segment, uh well, we're gonna meet the Dolly Parton of Blackbirds with Dayton, and uh you're gonna want to stay tuned for the end of the show where we hear more about when Dayton met the Dolly Parton of Blackbirds. Uh so stay tuned, all this and more on the Lone Star Trail right after these messages. Whether you're looking to buy your next hunting property or have acreage to sell, you need Brian Clark and Ranch Pro Real Estate in your corner. They use the latest in technology to make listings easy for sellers to maximize value. In the market to buy that perfect ranch or hunting getaway, call Ranch Pro Real Estate at 325-642-3630. That's Ranch Pro Real Estate at RanchPro Real Estate.com. The land is their life.

SPEAKER_05 3:17

Wear a life jacket, designated driver for the boat and for a safe ride home. All of these tips are gonna be a lot more days for you to play in this great state of Texas. Nobody's waterproof, yeah. That's the helmet truth, and you know it, I know that.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Sponsored by Texas Parks and Wildlife.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

You're listening to the Lone Star Trail. We're glad you're here. Now let's get back to the show. Welcome back to the Lone Star Trail. We're honored and privileged to have Monica McGardy, senior scientist for aquatic invasive species with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Monica, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

So I ran across uh some a news article, and I I guess it's a news article. It's uh it was a piece of information about a bounty program that is uh ongoing in the northeast part of Texas. And it has to do with carp. And so I reached out and uh of course you were all things uh invasive species for parks and wildlife. And so um I'm glad you can be here to tell us a little bit about about this bounty. And we'll start with the bounty program. I want to get the the ins and outs of that. But uh really uh as we talk about the bounty, it's really a a part of a bigger discussion about invasive species in in Texas waters. So first let's talk about the carp situation.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

They were introduced into aquaculture, they eat things like snails and mussels. They are believed to have escaped um originally up in the Missouri River basin. They've moved their way down through the Mississippi River basin, and there aren't very many catches over the year. We don't know a lot about them. We're concerned they could, you know, have harmful impacts on our native muscles, many of which are imperiled. And so this bounty program has been an effort over roughly the past decade with commercial fishers and bounty to try to collect information on them. Um because we just don't know we don't have many catches. And the last year it was expanded so that this program now reaches farther south and includes the Red River basin, um stretching from Louisiana up to Arkansas, Texas, um as these fish might move upstream. Um there have been uh there has been one documented report as near to Texas as Lake uh the Little River in Arkansas, which is a tributary near Texas. Um so in Texas, anywhere from the border all the way up to Lake Techoma, the major tributaries or areas would like people to keep an eye out. Um if you do catch one, um take photos, keep the fish on ice or freeze it. Um you can look online for each cool call for a flyer with information on identification and my contact information. And if it is a black carp, we'll get you set up to get back to our local biologist and they'll help you with all the paperwork to get a hundred dollar bounty. Um you it is possible to get up to 10 bounties per month. Um, but right now, you know, they really just aren't even known in our waters. Um so it's really just kind of a monitoring effort.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

So I I know people can go online and Google black carp and see a picture instantly, but describe for us a little bit some of the characteristics of the black carp in terms of what it looks like, maybe typical length as an adult, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Um so the black carp, um, if folks are familiar with a grass carp, they look a lot like a grass carp. You know, the torpedo-shaped body, fairly large scale, um, similar fins. The difference is they're black in coloration or nearly black, and they have um more of a pointed um mouth to them, pointed nose, than uh the grass carp do. Uh some of the other species that they're commonly mistaken for are going to be the common carp. Those are usually heavier bodied, and they do have barbels or the tentacles beside their mouth. Um, so that's a key thing to look for. Um some of the other things experienced anglers are really not going to have the mistake, um like buffalo or uh suckers, but those are some that folks um sometimes misidentified that that flyer talks about. Um these can get up to over a meter and a half in total length. Um the largest specimen was just a little over two meters. That's gonna be on the on the high side of this, so we'll we want folks to look out for any size.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

He talks about taking pictures, keeping the fish on uh on ice or in a refrigerant of some kind. Uh what happens to the fish after that? Is there a is there a drop-off station or is it just strictly uh information of you know, rough, rough weight, a picture, and and go from there?

SPEAKER_01 8:51

That's a great question. This is really um community science helping to provide information that's gonna help uh understand this species at a national scale. And so we do have district fisheries uh management offices all around the state. Those are the same locations, or they're among some of the locations where you would take a fish for measurement for a record. Um so we coordinate with them, try to get you to drop the fish off at their location. Then they're going to take all the measurements, the length, and the weight. They're also going to take out the earbones called oodoliths that um the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service can use to determine how old the fish is. Uh and they'll take a sample for some genetic analysis. So all of that gets contributed to science. The biologists with parks and wildlife help to fill out your paperwork and send that in, and then the payment could be sent back to you.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

That's great. And uh, of course, it's fun to catch fish of any kind. So uh obviously carp have been a sometimes a bane of angler's existence in certain fisheries and certain areas. Um people say yes, they're great to eat, you can eat them. Some people would wouldn't feed them to their dogs, but and anywhere in between. But uh talk a little bit about and you hit hit on this a little earlier, but talk a little bit, if you will, about um the disruption of the aquatic habitat if these carp are left unchecked.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

So with these carp, if they were to continue to spread and become abundant, um, or if they're more abundant than we know, uh the potential impact they could have would be particularly on our native muscles. Of course, there's potential impact to snails. Um, but we do have uh over 50 native mussels. Uh they serve important roles in our ecosystem for filtering and cleaning water. Um and when this large fish comes in, it's able to eat even larger uh sized mussels, that can be a real threat to them. Many of them are imperiled, some of them have become candidates for federal listing, and you know, we really don't want that to happen. We want to keep an eye on all the threats to them.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Good information. We're we're talking specifically about black carp. Uh, if you're just joining the program, uh Monica McGardy with the Texas Parks of Wildlife is with us this morning. And uh you you aren't just monitoring uh this these specific species of carp. You're there's a lot of different invasive species that you have uh oversight and coordination efforts with. If you will tell us a little bit more about some of the other species that uh are kind of on the radar right now.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

There are many invasive species in Texas. You can find about uh those and some of the ones that uh might show up on Texasinvasives.org. But when it comes to fish, uh some of the big species that are of the most concern are in that same Red River Basin drainage, the big head and silver carp. Um those are a bit more abundant. Sometimes bow anglers do catch them on the Texas tributary. Uh and they're filter feeders, so they're competing with things like fad, and they can alter the food lab for some of our sportfish and have impact. Silver carp also are notorious for leaping out of the water when a boat comes by, uh you know, 80-pound fish striking, you know, boaters. It's really dangerous. Um that's something we encourage folks to um try to target if they're up in that area, um report to it. They're also um what you probably know as picoes or algae eaters from aquarium stores. It become problematic. Um they can have impact on the native uh smaller fish, on a habitat, dig into the bank, destabilize structures. In San Marcos, there's actually the cold fear tournament that happens a couple of times a year. Um folks can find out more information about that online and participate. Um, Casa de la Cultura in Del Rio also has a tournament for them in San Felipe Creek. And then going to the marine side, um most folks have heard of lionfish. They're also a popular aquarium fish. Fastest thin fish invasion in history. They've spread all the way down, you know, east southeast coast through the entire Gulf, um, down to the coast of uh South America. There are tournaments for those as well that folks can take part in. And unlike the carp, um, if you learn how to clean them properly, they're great eating.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Great information today from uh Texas Parks and Wildlife Monica McGardy. She's the Aquatic Invasive Species Coordinator for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Thanks for being here, Monica, and uh best of luck with all the programs you're involved with.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Stay tuned right here. Lone Star Trail will return after these messages. Whether you're looking to buy your next hunting property or have acreage to sell, you need Brian Clark and Ranch Pro Real Estate in your corner. They use the latest in technology to make listings easy for sellers to maximize value. In the market to buy that perfect ranch or hunting getaway, call Ranch Pro Real Estate at 325-642-3630. That's Ranch Pro Real Estate at RanchproRealEstate.com. The land is their life. You're listening to the Lone Star Trail. We're glad you're here. Now let's get back to the show. Today on the Lone Star Trail, we have Nick Minchaka. He is the owner operator of Atlas Environmental down in uh San Marcus area. Nick, thanks for being here today. Yeah, thanks for having me. So uh man, you have got a interesting backstory, and I want to get into that first before we start talking about the tournament uh piece of our conversation today. Um tell me about Atlas Environmental, uh, what you guys do, and how I got started.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Uh yes, sir. So I was doing an internship with Texas State and just just ended up getting this internship for the uh watershed with the watershed protection coordinator who was about to be manager of the Habitat Conservation Plan. And um I had already been kind of working with her for some other field works, and uh she just kind of kind of convinced me to start this business and to bid on these contracts because there's not anybody who really specializes in this kind of work um around here. She wasn't getting a lot of interested interest on the contracts. And uh like I said, this is in about 2012, and uh the habitat conservation plan was starting in 2013, and um yeah, just just ended up starting atlas and starting starting the business and bidding on the contract, which is the the first contract that we got was in um we got we won the contract in the end of 2012 and we started the contract in 2013, and that was just for the San Marcus uh springs and river invasive fish removal, aquatic uh invasive fish removal, uh tilapia, armored catfish, nutria, and two different species of uh invasive snails. And um so yeah, we started doing that and and um it it um was a big kind of learning curve, just kind of figuring out how to how to do this. We spear fishing is is our primary method, and um we bit ended up bidding on the next contract in 2019, and that was for the new Bronfels uh Comalt Springs and River Systems invasive fish removal.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Okay, so you guys, and uh this is kind of a maybe a dumb question. What you're doing essentially is you're going in and identifying uh invasive species, and you mentioned those, uh armored catfish, uh some tilapia, uh nutria, which is a whole nother uh whole nother thing. But uh you guys go in, you identify areas, and basically you're fishing.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, pretty much. Uh that's pretty much what we do. We're snorkeling through, um, looking, you know, there's there is hot spots where we can get them, but there's also you know just throughout the areas uh of the river you can find them, especially different different specific times and uh times of the year. Um and yeah, we usually use uh pole spears in the river and and spear guns in the lake and and spring lake and land a lake where the the springs start. And um, you know, we use spear guns for the tilapia, mainly pole spears for the armored catfish. Um but there is kind of a little bit of uh, you know, we'll use some on some on different different things. Um but the the nutrients are all just live trapped. We don't spear those.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

Right, right, gotcha. Uh we talk a lot about live traps uh and foothold traps and things like that on the Lone Star Trail program here. So uh that fits right in. And and if you have a nutrient problem, whether that's on a private uh tank somewhere in East Texas or uh you know a public waterway like what you're talking about, they can wreak you know a lot of havoc. Um I want to kind of go back though to starting the business. You you you went through that pretty quickly like it was no big deal, but man, talk about kind of jumping out there and starting a business uh right out of college, not even out of college, right? You were still in college when you started the business?

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yeah, we we hadn't actually graduated yet, uh or I hadn't actually graduated yet when I started started the business. And um and yeah, it was it was a big uh it was a big a big leap um into the unknown and and it thankfully just you know we just were able to to hit it hard. I mean the the fish were like I said, they're they're very invasive. There's there's a lot out there. Uh they hadn't really been speared at this point, so it was it was quite a bit easier at that time to to spear them. And um we just just you know we're getting some good numbers and we just kept pushing it and figuring out different methods. We started uh running nets uh different times of the year for the tilapia, mainly when they're spawning uh in the shallower waters. Um but yeah, just it was just uh kind of a big a big leap of faith and and very thankful that everything has worked out the way it has.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

And you've been in business now for over a decade, so that's a that's a pretty big deal.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Yeah, we're starting our 14th year. Um we're we got some big uh big goals we'll be hitting this year. We just hit 10,000 tilapia removed, um I think last week or so, which is a big milestone for us. And then we also are gonna be hitting 20,000 armored catfish removed, which we're about 600 or so away. And then we'll also be hitting 40,000 pounds invasive biomass uh all since 20 you know 2013 in the San Marcus and 2019 in the Comal. And um and yeah, we're really happy with those numbers and you know, I've always been a numbers guide, and it's really fun to just kind of push it to the next number and you know just keep you know getting getting as many as we can.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

You said 40,000 pounds of biomass. That's uh uh trash, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

No, that's all invasive fish. Oh, that's all fish. Okay. Invasive fish, uh nutria. Yeah, not the nutria doesn't really account for very much of it. I think we've you know we only live trap the nutrients, so we only probably have removed about 200 of them. But uh still that's about yeah, we're getting yeah, it's still a decent amount, but yeah, 10,000 tilapia and 40,000 is like combined, uh all that combined, I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, it's a combination of uh of all the of all the not not but not trash, yeah. Trash we do actually do the trash by by cubic feet, um just to not account for like you know water weight or sediment and stuff like that. Sure. But uh but yeah, we do we uh we do a lot of trash removal as well.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

Well man, that's uh everybody's looking for the job that doing something that they love and they can turn it into a a business. I mean that's a that's like the the holy grail, you know. So uh congrats on that. I'm sure it's not all sunshine and roses every day.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

It's it's it's work, but uh yeah, it's it's it's uh it's funny you say that. It's you know a lot of people think it's oh you just you know you get to go spear all the time, you know. That's you know, it is a lot of spearing, but there is a a lot more to it, especially you know with the tournaments and you know keeping all our you know Excel charts all you know up to up to date with all the numbers. You know, we put length and weight of uh every single fish and into Excel charts and um you It is quite a bit more work than disappearing, but you know, we're very blessed and very, very thankful to be doing it this long. And you know, I could do this for as long as I can and and I would continue to be as happy as I am, you know, from day one, you know. That's great.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Uh you know, and I told you before we started the interview that I was gonna ask some dumb questions, and so here's probably dumb question number one. You talked about uh you talked about uh when you first started the the fish were a little easier to spear. You know, as we think about hunting feral hogs, uh they're notorious for for being educated very quickly, uh whether that's um you know hunting at night, uh hunting with a helicopter. Uh is that's is that kind of what you're experiencing with fish?

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, you know, from from the beginning, uh we were able to really sneak up on on the fish um pretty easily. They wouldn't really move a lot of sometimes. They would, especially the armored catfish, just stay on the bottom. But you know, they definitely know they're being hunted now. They're looking for the the nearest crevice or hole and to hide into or under rocks or you know, even just out into the vegetation where there's just no way you're gonna see them anymore. Um the tilapia the same way. They're you know, they used to be able to sneak up on them, especially at night, quite a bit more. But um, but now they're you know, the any sort of vibration in the water, I I tell some of the guys that you know if your heart's beating too fast, they'll they'll hear your heartbeat, you know. Um you really have to just kind of not be eager and really just kind of be very nonchalant. And you know, not I also tell my guys not to ever make eye contact, you know. If you make eye contact and they see you looking at them in the eye, then you probably won't see them anymore. But if you can kind of be really quiet and kind of you know look be looking off to the side and kind of looking them at looking at them out of your your peripheral vision, and then a lot of times they'll kind of you can get them to kind of start kind of swimming up to you to check you out, especially if you kind of have a little bit of cover with uh you know grass or some sort of vegetation out there. Um for the tilapia at least. Uh but yeah, it's it's it's really fun to to kind of see how curious you can get them to be, which is very, very difficult nowadays with how many, how much they're being hunted. But um, but yeah, if you if you play your cards right and and you know you can get some cover and be very quiet and get your breathing down as quiet as you can and your heartbeat down really slow, then sometimes you can get them to swim up to you.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

If you're just joining the program, we're talking with uh Nick Manchaka. He's the owner operator of Atlas Environmental down in San Marcus, and uh we're learning that uh you shouldn't make eye contact with fish you're trying to catch or spear. So, hey, I didn't know that. That's great, great information. Um let's talk about impact for a second. So, you know, 40,000 pounds of invasive species removed as a result of the work that you guys have done over the last 10 plus years. Talk about impact. Uh why is it important that that these particular species of fish, uh you you mentioned a couple of species of uh invasive snails and then the nutria. What what happens if these species are left unchecked?

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Well, um in in the most vague way I could say it is that they they outcompete the native species to the point of you know threatening them um threatening their habitat, threatening uh their resources. Um they just basically are just outcompeting them for resources and uh and habitat. Um there's there's areas in the river that um you'll see a lot of honeycomb banks um where a lot of it is armored catfish making these kind of burrowing these holes and uh they go in there and will lay their eggs. And these honeycomb banks, so they end up kind of re-engineering the bottom of the river because if you get a higher flow, it can come and wipe out that bank and just re- you know, increases the the um erosion and makes it happen a lot faster. Um for the tilapia, they they also kind of create these holes, but it's more of like a crater hole where they're spawning and they rip out all the vegetation in the hole, which a lot of times can take out native vegetation as well. But uh it's whenever they're making these holes, it creates a lot of uh sediment in the water. The water's not as clear. A lot of our um endangered species and native species are really depending upon you know clear water. And uh whenever there's that many tilapia spawning at one time, you know, it can really cloud up the water and cause a lot of sediment in the water. And uh not to mention just kind of out competing, you know, from bass uh bass spawning areas and other you know native fish spawning areas.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Here's dumb question number two, I guess. What happens to these fish after they're speared or caught? What do you guys do with them?

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Or what do they do? Uh we uh we everything gets sent to be composted that we don't eat. Uh we don't really eat the armored catfish very much. Um we're really I mean I don't really eat them at all, honestly. Uh the tilapia we eat a lot. We we eat the tilapia often. I mean, um there's uh lots of different ways to make it. I think it's all very good. Um it's it's it's a wild tilapia. It's it's good fish, it's white, flaky, you know, flaky meat. Um we also do a fish fry, uh a free fish fry once a year. We used to do it twice a year, but we're just moving it so once a year. It's a huge event to put on. Um we do it after the winter tournament, usually in uh like late November or early December. Um but yeah, we we give out usually 500, 600 tacos at this event. It's a free event. Just come bring your family, get as much food as you want. Uh we you know encourage people to come back for seconds and thirds, or you know, even take some home if we have any left over. Uh but yeah, we we enjoy sharing the fish with the community. I feel like it's um these fish are a resource. There's um there's things that we can do with them besides them just ending up in a landfill. And um and yeah, I mean there's other goals I have, uh, especially with the tilapia for for what we like to do with them. But um but yeah, we do we do eat as many as possible. And um, I you know, I got a f a freezer full of tilapia right now that I give out to uh friends and family. And you know, and a lot of times when we're out there in the water and people will, oh, what are y'all doing out there? You know, coming checking us out, other fishermen, and we'll give the we'll give the fish away, just you know, get the links and wait on them real quick and give the fish away to other people who are interested in it. And you know, we always love enjoy spreading that uh, you know, spreading the fish love around for other people because it is good fish, and you know, people people you know need the protein and you know, people are hungry, and it is a good source of it, you know. And um, but yeah, you know, we don't like we don't want anything to be ended up in a landfill. And uh we do everything else gets into compost. We've had a few different composters over the years, uh, right now with Borewith Bobcat Blend, which is a Texas State University program. Um, but yeah, they take all of our fish and compost it, so you know nothing's ended up in a landfill.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

That's great. And that's great. Um talking about your business and scalability. Uh you guys are in basically two river systems right now uh with these with these contracts, and they're part of a uh conservation program, I realize. So there's there's probably some state or federal grant uh pieces to that. So it's it may not be scalable in every river system in Texas. But uh what are what are some opportunities, I guess, as you look forward uh and to the future for your services to be used in, you know, like the Llano River or you know, the Colorado or what what what's talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Well, you know, that's not there's not a lot of opportunity for invasive fish removal through spear fishing in in other areas because the the clarity of the water uh you know coming out of the springs here and the San Marcus Springs and Comal Springs. It's um you know, it's just kind of a very it is, it's it's a very unique experience of uh being able to spear in in fresh water like that. Um it's it's I just I don't really see a whole lot of opportunity in other areas, and especially because there's not you know a habitat conservation plan in place or endangered species where it's gonna require you know that sort of protection and and possible you know funding opportunities like that. Um there is other opportunities for other work that we do um for you know underwater litter removal and stuff and and uh and other rivers, but uh but yeah, it's just such a such a unique um opportunity that we've been you know able to to do for so long. It's just like I said, it's just such a blessing, and you know, we're just so happy to be to continue to be doing it.

SPEAKER_04 30:47

That's really cool. Let's go now and talk about the tournament that is really just just got kicked off. Let's talk about the the tournament. Give me the the ins and outs of how this thing got started, what the goals are, and if people want to be involved, uh give us some ways that they can they can do that.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yeah, so um, you know, we've always we've always had a lot of interest for uh from the community um and and not only the local community, just the spearfishing community and other you know, other sorts of fishing and outdoor enthusiasts who who want to get into it. And um the tournament was a perfect way to kind of bring the community together to um you know people to win win cash prizes and also you know experience spear fishing and and and you know just remove as much as we can in a in a short period of time is one of them is really the main goal. Um but yeah, we've had a um we've had 20, I think this is the 23rd tournament that we're putting on right now. So we've done a lot of tournaments or twice a year, and um it's it's just been a great success. We've um got a lot of weight removed through the tournaments. Um let's see, I think you know, close to 5,000 pounds uh removed through the tournaments. And um and yeah, it's just it's just a great way, like I said, to bring the community together to remove a lot of weight in a short period of time. You know, um there's a lot of interest in spear fishing, and you know, even if guys go out and only get a couple of fish, I mean it it all adds up to to you know to all the total numbers for the tournament, you know. So if we have this tournament, we only have about 25 people in it, but the spring tournament's kind of a smaller tournament since we just did the winter one. There's only about two months in between them. The winter tournaments is kind of the bigger tournament. Uh we do the fish fry after it. There's usually about 50 or 60 people in that one. Um, but yeah, we have 14 different categories to win. There's uh most most armored catfish, most tilapia, most trash, most snails, biggest armored catfish, biggest tilapia, smallest armored catfish, smallest tilapia. We call that our precision shot, whoever gets the smallest one. Um there's cat guys will come up with some really tiny little tilapias and tiny armored catfish like the size of your fingernail, which is pretty crazy. Uh a lot of them they get them under like a hand grab or something like that, but uh you don't have to get them, you don't have to spear them as long as you get the fish, obviously. You know, but a lot of people will get them under a hand grab, which is really cool. Um, a pretty cool skill that a lot of the guys are are good at. Um, but yeah, we also have uh most weight removed for second and third, and then top haul for second and third. We uh we split the tournament into three five-hour time slots since it's kind of close proximity in the river, and um that way you know there's not a whole bunch of people just going out and spearing at one time. Um so yeah, you get three five-hour time slots when you register, and and you you know, whoever gets the most out of all three time slots is the most weight removed first, second, and third, and whoever gets the most in one time slot is our top haul, and then there's a first, second, and third for that as well. It takes a lot of coordination, it sounds like yeah, it's it's you know, it's it's definitely been um you know quite a bit of coordinating. Uh my wife helps me a lot with it. She does a ton of um um of our you know artwork for our flyers and everything else, and she does all the registration and everything. So it's a big um it's a big kind of family thing that you know we're we're putting on just between me and her. And um, you know, we're really happy to be doing it for this, you know, for this long. It's a lot of a lot of tournaments. I mean, for it's a ton of work, you know, we've we know what to do. Since we've done so many, you know, it's just kind of it just kind of happens. I mean, we just you know, we've done it for so much, we know exactly what to do. It just kind of you know keeps going. Um we are you know looking forward to to possibly you know getting I don't know, doing different things. We we're thinking about doing a teams tournament at some point, which would be pretty cool. And then we're also thinking about doing like a summer kind of bounty, which would all be at night, kind of night screw fishing thing, since there's so many people, so much recreation in the river. But but yeah, for now, I mean these two tournaments right here have been a great success, and we're happy to keep it going, you know.

SPEAKER_04 34:54

For more information, you can go to Atlasenvironmental TX.com and find more information. Also, a link's gonna be on the Lone Star Trail Facebook page. You can go uh find us on Facebook and and uh get more information about it there. So very cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

Nick, uh, let's talk now. Uh and this is another dumb question, probably, but what kind of spears are we talking about? Are we talking about like handheld long poles or are we talking about spear guns or both?

SPEAKER_02 35:25

So for the tournament, we um the tournament's all just a pole spear tournament. Um people can use whatever size they want. I mean, really anything over six foot is pretty long for the river with how much um vegetation there is and you know how much you got to kind of maneuver around it and uh how much current. A lot of times the current can really you know push the back into your spear whenever you have it loaded and you're trying to get a shot. Uh so yeah, six foot's pretty long. Um I actually am using a little small, it's like a two and a half foot spear. It's very, very small. But uh so yeah, it's a it's a wide, it's a wide range of spears that you can use uh for the river. I mean, the armored catfish, you really don't need something that long, you know, like a two and a half foot, three foot, maybe four foot spear. I think a four foot could even be a little long for them. But uh we're we're using three three-prong paralyzer tips, which is uh what they have a little uh barb on each prong. So uh we get a pretty good hold out of those. They're pretty cheap on Amazon, maybe like 20 bucks. So they're pretty easy to replace. Um uh but yeah, you know, the fiberglass spears or pull spears are are great. I mean, you don't really need too much, those will last you a good while. I I've used a lot of different other kinds of spears like aluminum, two-piece spears or uh carbon fiber spears and stuff like that. Carbon fiber ones are just you know, a lot of times they'll end up snapping after you know a couple years of use, or the aluminums will end up bending and you can't they won't bend back. But the fiberglass ones, if they bend, they'll you know go back to their normal uh straightness. So I actually like the fiberglass ones a lot for the river, and they're so much cheaper and you know a little bit more disposable, and you can kind of customize them however you want with wraps and grips. And um, I have one that I did like a little you know blue camouflage uh vinyl wrap on it that looks super cool and a grip. Um, but yeah, I mean three-prong paralyzer tip is is you know the primary tip that everybody uses out there for for uh for everything. Some people will use like a single single barb uh or single prong, like a spinger, a single spear point with the barb on it and a flopper, but um, or with a with a flopper on it. But that's a you know, not very often, it's like mainly just used for tilapia. But um, but yeah, that's uh that's the main thing we're using, is just those pole spears in the river for the tournament. And then we we use spear guns for the lakes, uh for the springs, which is you know, Spring Lake and Landa Lake, and uh we're using like a 55 centimeter um invert roller spear gun, which has like a pulley on the front of it, and um you just get a lot of power out of the roller spear gun. This one's like an invert roller, which has uh the bands on the bottom of the spear. But um, but yeah, those are those are really cool spears, they're really kind of you know something it's a little bit more complicated than normal spear, but once you get used to it, you get a ton of range out of it and a lot more power out of it, and very, very little recoil of invert rollers.

SPEAKER_04 38:18

You brought up range, so I'm gonna ask you like what what kind of range are we talking about? When you say get a lot of range, what's a what's a long range?

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Um, well, you know, on those 55 centimeter guns, we'll we'll do what it's called a double wrap. Whenever you load the gun, you're running the line on it, and it has a little line catch. You you just run it over it one time. And uh none of our none of our spear guns have reels on them. Uh we don't really need the reels for the river. It's just kind of I don't know, it's kind of more of an ocean thing for using the reels. I don't you know, we never really use them. So we have this uh small little bungee which goes between the very tip of the gun and the line. And that way, like if it the line shoots out really fast and you don't end up getting something, it kind of has the bungee to slow it down so it doesn't snap the line. But uh, but yeah, those you know, that with the the single wrap, you only get maybe about I don't know, eight feet or so of uh of range. But whenever you have the double wrap, I mean it extends drastically and you get you know quite a bit more, maybe 15 feet. Um on the invert roller gun, it uh you know it'll keep that power all the way to the end of the range, too. It's it's really an incredible gun. It's from a brand called MVD, and uh I've been using that gun for six years, and it's a great, great gun. But uh there's other companies who make the invert roller style as well. But um since they're so short and you get so much power out of them, then you know you're great for hunting through through grass and hunting craters, whatever you're um hunting the tilapia in the in the spawning season. And then also if you get out in open water, you can still get one um you know further further away. So they can get a little difficult like maneuvering the gun or a longer gun around the grass and vegetation and the currents. So you really you know, a 60 centimeter, 55 centimeter gun is pretty pretty perfect.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

Man, I'm already thinking about options as my as my coyote calling uh has not been that great. I'll just be honest with everybody, it's just not been that great for whatever reason. It's like maybe it's time to switch to uh spear fishing, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah, yeah, you'd you'd really love it. It's just like I said, it's such a unique experience, and you know, it just you just gotta do it. I mean, these these rivers have been getting you know lower and lower, you know, with the drought and everything that's going on. So, you know, just I don't know how long, you know, I'm I'm hoping not for the worst, but I mean just you never know how long they're gonna be here. So I really encourage, you know, try to just get out there and experience it. You know, it's just such a you know once, you know, I'm not saying a once in a lifetime experience, but it's a very, very unique experience that you can't really do a lot of other places and you know. Right. Especially if to have it here in Texas and so close that yeah, you really should give it a go.

SPEAKER_04 41:07

You know, well I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna try it sometime this year. That's that's one of my goals. Uh let's talk about, you know, you sound like a guy who and you mentioned even uh ocean hunting, spear fishing. You gotta tell me what's the craziest thing uh in your time uh of of doing this that you've ever you've ever speared.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Well, you know, I don't do a lot of ocean spear fishing. Um, you know, just mainly mainly out here, you know, freshwater for for work, you know. Um you know, there's there's a lot of different things we've we've seen out there uh between huge koi fish. One time I got a um like a kind of a carp koy hybrid that was like yellow and orange and white and all these crazy colors, and it was like 12 pounds. It was huge, it was one of the biggest fish I've ever speared. And um, you know, obviously that's not a fish that's supposed to be in there, it's invasive fish. It um came out of land of lake. So that was a really cool experience. Um, a lot of times we we see these um alligator snapping turtles, which you know, we have a common snapping turtle here in the river, but the alligator snapping turtles aren't native to our river, so they're they're huge. Whenever you run into them, they just look like a dinosaur. So I've been you know accidentally came face to face with them a few times, you know, with a couple feet between us, and yeah, they're they're very scary to run into. But um other than that, I mean, you know, I live for two for one shots. That's like one of my favorite things in the world is to shoot two fish at the same time. And you know, a couple probably, you know, I don't know, maybe a hundred times a year, I can get it. I mean, it's the tilapia will line up next to each other pretty pretty, you know, commonly. So if you wait and you're patient and you're you know you're waiting and you know, just not being too eager and and you're you know being as calm as you can, you can get them to swim up to you and then get them to line up, and then you know, you can shoot two at the same time. And I've actually got the three for three three fish at one time twice in my life, and I would probably say that's that probably takes the takes the cake. You know, that's uh been huge. I've I've got a a seven-pound tilapia that I have mounted up here above my desk. And oh wow, that's also um, you know, one of my one of my trophies, and then I've got a six-pound armored catfish that I had mounted, and both of them are using the actual skin, and so it's a real good mountain job. And um, you know, just just like like those things a lot and like to see them in my office and uh you know just kind of reminisce of memory experiences. Yeah, yeah. And then just you know, all the cool stuff you find in the river. I mean, there's just kind of you know, like the treasure hunting is always really fun during you know summer, whenever we're doing underwater litter removal and you know armored catfish removal. Um yeah, just you know, the treasure hunting is really fun.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Anything crazy there? There's gotta be, I mean, that's my you know, other pastime is finding. So if if my arrowhead honey dries up, then I'll I guess I'll I guess I'll go under the water and start high.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Oh yeah. Other than that, it's like you know, gold is always really you know, really, really nice to find. I found one gold chain in the river that was like 36 grand. Probably, you know, like a four or five thousand dollar chain, and that's that's pretty up there. Of course there's a there's a lot of people who listen, you know if they wanted to try to get their shit back, or you know, but yeah, I mean there's there's you know nobody nobody's got a good form back and there's just such a good find. Um yeah, just stuff like that, and you know, I've got a ton of just like yeti cuts and water bottles and you know, all the really nice vacuum silk cards and all that you can start a resale business on all the you know, have so many of that stuff and you know, just stuff that you end up using like all the time, it's just like you know, I really like this thing. It's such a good sign. I mean the tank top I'm wearing right now, you know, I found in the river and half of my assortment of clothes came from the river, half of my assortment of towels, you know. I find stuff from my wife all the time that you know she loves to wear like little sundresses and stuff. I mean, it's just like the river gives and the river takes, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Literally, you know. Oh, that's great, that's awesome. Nick, hey, it's been such a great uh great time visiting with you today, and we hope to catch up again real soon. Uh best of luck as you start the tournament that runs from February 13th to March 1st. Uh registration is already open. Visit Atlasenvironmental TX.com for more information or find more information on the Lone Star Trail Facebook page. We'll have a link there posted as well, so you can check it out there and go down and and try your hand at uh at some spear fishing. All my Central Texas environment hunters that listen in, they can uh take a break from the cold and uh and not calling any coyotes or bobcats and and go take a take a chance and find some fish and do some good at the same time. So Nick, uh again, thank you for your time today. Thanks for what you're doing, and uh we'll catch up again sometime.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Sounds good. Thank you very much for having me. Had a great time.

SPEAKER_04 46:14

You're listening to the Lone Star Trail, and it's time once again for House Rules with Dayton House. Dayton is a retired government trapper, a firearms expert, an outdoors enthusiast, and a true Texan. At 76 years old, he's still going strong and enjoys sharing his passion of the outdoors with others. It's time once again for House Rules on the Lone Star Trail. We're here with Dayton House once again, retired government trapper, 30-year career plus. Uh you know, you're retired, but you're not inactive. You're still out there a lot, uh, and you've you've been at this long enough to set some records.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Uh I've been retired 22 years and I've enjoyed every day of it. Uh I've set more records uh than the average trapper because I had the opportunity to work uh more things. While I was uh working with the state, I went to a dairy in Stephenville and shot over 1,200 starlings. Now, Starling is the dolly partner the Blackbirds, but uh it was a problem there. The landowner that owned the dairy, his children tried shooting the starlings themselves with pellet guns, and he said they shot more holes in the roof and the water lines than he could repair. So he called us in, and I killed over 1,200 starlings in a week there with a single-shot pellet gun. And the state had just bought me a uh prematic charged pellet gun with a scuba tank, and uh you could recharge that thing, and I could get 120 shots through that thing before we'd have to recharge it. And one night I shot 121 times before I charged it. I'd missed three shots during that 121 times that I fired, and I killed 128 starlings. So occasionally you could line two up and and get both of them, but uh uh that's fun. It was different. I'd enjoyed shooting birds all my life, and so to get paid for shooting blackbirds at night was unbelievable. Uh killed over a thousand pigeons for TU one month, and used the same pellet gun and uh little kids that enjoy going to the courthouse and shooting pigeons, but uh uh with the uh they don't do that anymore, Dayton. Oh, yeah, I did, yes. In Hamilton County, they were having problems with the uh pigeons droppings on the people in the cars, so I'd worked with the Hamilton County judge, and I'd set up on the courthouse lawn there and tell the sheriff that I was gonna be shooting, and if he got any reports, we'll just uh ignore him. He knew who it was. And uh uh Randy was the sheriff back then. He and I grew up together and uh enjoyed each other, shot a few prairie dogs, but uh uh uh average person couldn't sit on the courthouse and shoot pigeons off of it, but uh that was something enjoyed. He killed 600 buzzards in a month and uh good night. 32 coyotes in one day with snares. Wow. But I'd set out 125 snares uh Thursday and Friday before this, uh, north of Brecken Ridge, and come back Monday morning and uh have 32 coyots and five or six hogs. What time of year was that on the coyotes? Uh I believe that was August. Oh, okay. And the old pups were big and active, and this landowner had uh what we call bull wire fence, and every time a coyote came by he dug a hole. And uh one day I was setting snares and walked down in the draw and up the other side setting snares all along the way, and when I came back, I already had a coyote caught, and it hadn't been 10 minutes since I'd set that snare. There were so many coyotes in that area, and they were never trapped after, and uh it was fun to spend a month there. I bet. And so uh that was one of the things that you could enjoy. Uh caught 127 coyotes that month, and we thought we were doing good, and we called the fixed wing plane in, and they shot 293. We thought we'd cleaned them out there. They had uh uh kill more in one morning than we could catch all month long. So uh the airplane was the way to go in West Texas. It's kind of hard to use in this brushy uh mesquite and cedar, but out in West Texas, well, that it's a lot cheaper to do a fixed wing and it is helicopter. And the helicopter is the only way to control hogs, that's the fastest way, but the most expensive way to control hogs. So landowners having it's the most fun though. Probably is, but I enjoy shooting them at night with thermal. And um, I may have made this statement once before, but I'll repeat it. My wife's not here to hear it. But uh I've made it before God and everybody that I'm having more fun now shooting hogs than I did on my honeymoon. And the wife said, I you know, I think I am too. But uh we've been married for 56 years and still get along, so uh we can make those statements and uh we know the difference in it. 56 years. Yeah, wow, that's great. And I'd do it all over to the same woman again. Well, that means a lot, I'm sure. I I don't know if I'll ask her that same question or not. Oh, yes, she would she'd enjoy it. But it was nice to go to a different area and uh uh see something new every time you went. Uh I just wished I'd have been able to have caught a mountain lion. We had a trapper hard in West Texas in the Big Bend area, and that's all he did year-round was chase mountain lions. He had a good mule and took three good dogs and five or six sorry dogs, but he could keep up with them, and uh uh it wasn't anything for him to kill 40 to 60 mountain lines every year. 40 to 60. What years was that? Oh, in the uh early 20s or 2020 and okay. Uh 19, I think he was even in the late 1900s, 1998 or 6, somewhere along there. I I never got the opportunity to go with him. Okay. So the late 90s? Yes. Okay, got it. And I'm sure he's retired by now. That's been 30, 40 years ago, but uh it would have been nice to have gone out there and uh watched him work and killed a mountain lion.

SPEAKER_04 53:23

Okay, this is a good opportunity to bring this up. Uh, you know, there's been a concerted effort in the last, let's say, two or three years to what I think is moving toward a probably a threatened status and on their way to endangered status for the mountain lion.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Uh what are your thoughts about that? I've never worked with them enough to have much of an educated opinion. Uh the first one I knew of was killed by John Smith here in Mills County, and uh that was the 1960s, and they killed it by accident, deer hunting, and just stumbled across it and got lucky. And I doubt there's been 10 mountain lions killed here that uh in 40 years. So uh people say they see them or hear them or have them on camera now, and uh they're probably more out there than I think they are, but uh, there's never been a huntable population that I'm aware of. Some of my uh great-great-granddads killed a jaguar here in the 20s, and nobody'd ever heard of one being this far north. Right. But uh a blind hog can find an apron every now and then, so you it you get lucky. Sure, right, right. Uh I want to mention one thing that I've not brought up is uh the shield on a hog. A boar hog will have a shield that begins at his ear, and all that shield is is a big old gristle. When you cut it open, it may look like a slab of bacon, but it's just more of a gristle. And I've seen some of those start at their ear and go all the way to their tail, and it gets the thickest at the shoulder, and it's to protect the hogs when they're fighting. Uh they'll not puncture anything, and most of the time the the tufts don't go in more than a couple of inches, and some of these shields will be over two inches thick, and so while they're fighting, they may chew an ear completely off and draw blood, but uh the shield keeps them alive, and it's just unbelievable how tough that thing is. And some arrows will hit that and then the a rib, and it'll never penetrate the lungs, and they're they're they're hard to kill, the old big males are. So, where where do you aim when you're trying to put them down? Where do you aim? If the hog is with a hundred yards and less and standing still, I'll aim right below the ear. Okay. But uh, whenever you shoot the first shot, well, they scatter, and you're lucky to hit one running. And my rule is uh for every 20 yards that hog's out there, you shoot a foot in front of him. So when they start running? When they start running, well, you shoot in front of him, and there's a little bit of hesitation or delay on thermal, right? And uh that hog will outrun the bullet, so to speak. But uh if he's out there 40 yards, you need to shoot him two feet in front of him. That's when they're running 90 degrees. And so imagine a broom out in front of a hog at 100 yards, you're gonna shoot at the front of that broom, and uh chances are you're gonna hit him somewhere, you're lucky to hit him at all at 100 yards, but uh uh people will ask, well, how far do you lead one? And that's my rule one foot for every 20 yards. And how fast can a hog run? Well, faster than you can. How fast can you run?

SPEAKER_04 56:54

Now, uh this is something that you know we talk about a lot, and uh other people have lots of opinions, but uh seems like the popular opinion now is everybody's carrying some kind of sidearm when they're out when they're out hunting uh hogs or predators. Do you carry something like that?

SPEAKER_03 57:13

No, never have. I've had the opportunity to hunt with dogs, and to me that's the most dangerous part is catching one, especially at night, and depending on that dog to hold on, and then you walk in there and grab a hind leg and flip him over and kill him with a knife. And I did that once just to say I did. It's kind of like the monks. You ought to do it once and may not enjoy it a second time.

SPEAKER_04 57:46

Well, that's all the time we have for the show today. We thank you for stopping by and joining us on the Lone Star Trail. We invite you to come back next week, same time, same place. And you can find us on Facebook and write to us at Lone Star Trail Radio at gmail.com. We'd love to see those hunting pictures and stories. From all of us here at the show. Thanks for listening so long.